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Knowledge of html as a barrier to participation on Scoop sites Feature Requests
By rashmi , Section Wishlist []
Posted on Tue Apr 02, 2002 at 12:00:00 PM PST
Users on my Scoop site www.dialognow.org often complain about how difficult html is. Recently someone posted this as part of their comment: I hate HTML= Horrendous,Terrible,Meaningless Language!There are a number of members who (write well, and have a lot of interesting) but choose not to post front page stories because they cannot deal with posting links. I see the need to know html acting as a real barrier to users being able to post quality stories & comments. Is this problem being faced by other Scoop sites? And is it important for Scoop to make the posting comments and stories interface accessible to non tech-savvy users?

The site I run is oriented around political discussion. Users tend to be interested in the topic, and largely non tech-savvy. For a number of users, this is the first time they have participated in an online community. I regularly get emails about this issue. The current interface is designed to help non html users to post links, make test bold, add breaks etc., by providing concrete exmples of html tags(go here for screenshots). But that does not seem to be helping much.

MY own take on the matter is that the posting comments and stories interface needs to be especialy easy to use. It should not involve any knowledge of html. Hitting return should be enough to add breaks. Making text bold, and adding links should be similarly easy. Other html tags can be used by power users. But all users should be able to do this basic formatting. Other aspects of that interface should also make for an easy user experience. I have some sketches for what such an interface would look like and can post that if there is any interest.
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Knowledge of html as a barrier to participation on Scoop sites | 40 comments (40 topical, 0 hidden)
I totally agree... (none / 0) (#1)
by The Trinidad Kid on Tue Apr 02, 2002 at 01:09:59 PM PST

I have done a lot of work on making Scoop more usable and my site has inline, contex-sensitive help. I put a lot of work into dealing with the submission screen in particular -including doing things like reducing the number of acceptable HTML tags (I'd never heard of strong, cite and some of the nested ones...).

The intention is to go onto usability testing once the code is in the CVS tree (submitted at the weekend gone).

What we actually need is a GUI interface like the Rich Text Enabled box in Hotmail that allows (Windows) users to set bold and underline etc with a selection/button combo (just like Word processors) and also accepts pasting in as RTF off the clipboard to move formats from word into the post.

This should be a browser plug in, that takes a set of acceptable HTML tags from a URL and then creates a GUI to implement them and returns it all as an appropriate 'thingie' to the web site.

It needs to run in IE as a matter of course (with maybe CodeWinder (?) CodeRunner (?) cutting it over to Linux...)


Scottish Political Discussion


A little bit, yes (none / 0) (#2)
by UncleMikey on Tue Apr 02, 2002 at 03:50:28 PM PST

I've seen some of this, altho' honestly, the biggest problem I've seen so far is with Mac users with smart-quotes turned on (or pasting from a smart-quoted file). Since Mac (and I guess Windows, but it's only Mac users who have choked on this so far) typesetting marks are not Unicode or ISO8859, they wind up looking like line noise...
--
Uncle Mikey, Addicting the unsuspecting to the 'Net since 1987
Radio Free Tomorrow


It's a trade-off (none / 0) (#3)
by johnnyc on Tue Apr 02, 2002 at 03:58:23 PM PST

It's an issue I've already settled to my satisfaction for urania (in development), but it's well worth discussing. I thought about this long and hard and decided that so long as comments can be posted in plain text, the status quo suits me fine. I'll edit a story myself if I have to.

The html one needs to know to post a story to a scoop site is minimal. If you know Word, you can learn the html needed for a scoop story in a few minutes. It takes a little getting used to, but it makes a difference in how a story reads. It gives all stories a consistent feel and mixing html and non-html stories could get ugly.

So long as users can post comments in plain text, the status quo suits me fine. I used to think this wasn't a great thing, but I don't think I'd have it any other way.



Use UBB codes? (none / 0) (#6)
by khym on Tue Apr 02, 2002 at 07:00:29 PM PST

There's many web forums that use UBB codes, so the user can do
[url]http://foo.com[/url]
or
[url=http://foo.com]Foo[/url]
Since a lot of people are already familiar with UBB code, it would carry over to posting on Scoop sites.



Possible Options (none / 0) (#9)
by nhlinux on Thu Apr 04, 2002 at 09:33:41 AM PST

The first option would be to develop a WYSIWYG Java applet that replaces the text boxes used to add stories. There are some projects on Freshmeat and SourceForge that are attempting to create some sort of generic Java applet for use in weblog apps.

The second option is to adopt the STX format that Zope uses to add plain text files to the Zope CMF. STX is plain text with user-friendly codes used for hyperlinks and image placement.



Some suggestions (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by coryking on Thu Apr 04, 2002 at 11:35:35 AM PST

Here are some suggestions:
  • In plain text mode - get the parser to pick out URL's (look for http://, ftp:// mailto:, etc..) and automatically turn those into hyperlinks.
  • Do something like MS Word does - pick out *BOLD TEXT* and replace the asterisks with bold, or _UNDERLINE_ , /italic/, etc.
  • Pick out things that look like lists and make them real lists.
  • While I think it's ugly, a lot of message boards pick out :-), ;-), :-(, etc and replace them with pictures. DONT DO THIS TO K5!!! Yuk! But you could make the feature avalible for other sites (I'm written a patch that does a <smiley> tag).
  • Look for commonly mis-typed words - hte for the, hwat, or hwere - and automatically replace them.
  • You could even do cool things like if you type in something that the system recognises (a username, and address, etc) - replace it with a link to more info (ala user info, mapquest map, etc).

Basically, try make life easier for the user by predicting what they want. Kind of what word does. While some would be annoying for a experianced user, newbies would love it because the back-end does everything. Have three or four modes modes - Plain Text, "Smart text", "Mixed mode", and Native HTML.

--
Cory R. King
xlan.org (scoop hosting)
photographica (pictures)



Simple Suggestion (none / 0) (#14)
by johnnyc on Thu Apr 04, 2002 at 01:56:10 PM PST

After reading all these comments I was just as convinced as ever that html is a must for posting stories, but still had to think about whether it could be made easier for users with no html knowledge. The answer is that it can and probably should if you're running a scoop site being used by non-techies. I figure if enough people want this feature, then it will get done eventually in the scoop code, but I know very little perl and I wouldn't have a clue.

I went over to the Trinidad Kid's site to see how the inline help was going. It's a decent idea but overly complicated. There was a box with links to sections of a huge help file, where one could get information on how to use a tag, but it took ages to load this little piece of help.

Let's face it, one only needs to know about 4 tags to write a decent story in scoop. I figured all that was needed was to create a block that was just a box, similar to scoop_intro, where users would just be given a brief example of each tag that they could cut and paste into their story. Very simple. If you can copy and paste, you can do this in a 5 seconds. It's clear and concise. I placed it in an area of the submit_template where users would see it while writing.

If anyone is interested, just e-mail me and I'll send you the block. I think it'll make a difference for people who don't want to bother learning the tags. Actually, they'll see this and realize how easy it is. Honestly, if they have trouble with copy/paste, then I'm not sure they should even be using a computer at all.

Trinidad, thanks for the inspiration. I saw you're inline help and immediately liked the idea. It's just overly complicated in its execution.



Difficulties of HTML (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by TheophileEscargot on Sat Apr 06, 2002 at 07:26:32 AM PST

I've seen a few comments here implying that teaching the users to do HTML is a simple matter of getting them to learn a few rules, but I disagree.

It's true that only a few tags need to be used for a post. The problem is that the user has to learn the concept of a tag. This isn't as straightforward as it seems. It's not obvious to a user that putting something in angled brackets does something different. It's also not obvious to the user why in the samples they look at, some are paired with end tags, while some are not;and why some have attributes, and some do not.

Also, the concept of an invisible character is something that's very unintuitive to an average user. To most people, a character is one of those things that they see in front of them. Having invisible characters seems like a contradiction in terms. The idea that there are invisible characters which have complex effects on the ones around them is mysterious and rather frightening. If you start fooling around with these strange and powerful beasts, who knows what terrible consequences could erupt?

It's important to remember too that an average user does not possess the concept of "whitespace". An average person thinks in terms of movement, not in terms of inserting "whitespace". When he presses the spacebar, he thinks of that as "moving to the right". When he presses enter, he thinks of that as "moving down". That's the more natural way to imagine it, since that's what happens when handwriting, or even using a typewriter. "Whitespace" is not an intuitive concept.

Teaching a non-techie HTML is not a simple matter of informing them of a few basic rules. Instead it involves completely destroying their existing mental model of how things work, and creating a new one from scratch; while introducing them to several deeply unintuitive new concepts. It's pretty painful for them, and can be quite bad for you, too.

A proposal
As an alternative, keep things as simple as possible. Allow them a plain text mode with stories as with comments. Allow them to forget about links entirely if they want.

If they do want links, have a group of textboxes that allow URLS to be entered. Parse them to check that they're correctly formatted, then put them in the "related links" box. Forget about naming them, just call them link1, link2 etc.

This solution isn't exactly elegant, but it should be easy to use. And you can always point them to an HTML tutorial if they complain...



Manual labor (none / 0) (#27)
by abo on Tue Apr 09, 2002 at 05:36:30 PM PST

One way to solve the problem might be to allow people to just type "...over there at the other site (http://slashdot.org), I saw...", and have some editor go through the text and insert those links before it leaves the submission queue. It's difficult to build a decent user interface in a web browser, so don't.



A possible solution (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by Joe Groff on Wed Apr 10, 2002 at 09:27:37 PM PST

I was hacking together a filter to auto-linkify URLs in comment text when hurstdog pointed this story out to me. I thought that something similar to the way MS Word autoformats lists, bold text and other markup would be a welcome addition to Scoop. I whipped up a demo of some "extended plain text" filters, which you can play with here. For those too lazy to follow the link, here is a rundown of the transformations this performs as of now:
  • Special HTML characters will be escaped and line breaks automatically inserted, as is standard for "Plain Old Text" mode.
  • Plain URLs will automatically be turned into links.
  • Small text fragments wrapped in *stars* or _underscores_ will be bolded or italicised, respectively.
  • Series of lines all beginning with '* ' (a star followed by a space) will be converted into a bulleted list; e.g. the following fragment:
    * First bullet point
    * Second bullet point
    * Third bullet point
    will become:
    • First bullet point
    • Second bullet point
    • Third bullet point
I would like to get some feedback on this (especially bug reports) before I go about integrating it into scoop. There are some more filters I'd like to implement (most notably, numbered lists), and of course suggestions are welcome. The idea is to let people type in what they mean, and give it a pretty HTML representation. This is the best way I can think of to make nontrivial formatting available to the technically uninclined, short of coding a full WYSIWYG HTML editor as a java applet :-)



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Knowledge of html as a barrier to participation on Scoop sites | 40 comments (40 topical, 0 hidden)
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